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>> No. 1795 Anonymous
27th May 2011
Friday 6:32 pm
1795 spacer
ITT: Workplace annoyances.

I'll get the ball rolling - having to bring in pastries on your birthday. I know it's cheaper if people bring their own in on their birthday instead of chipping in every time someone in the office has a birthday, but it's still fucking annoying having to fork out on your birthday.
4206 posts omitted. Last 50 posts shown. Expand all images.
>> No. 14814 Anonymous
28th September 2023
Thursday 10:48 pm
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>>14813
> but a degree meant much more when only a small minority of the population had one.

True. More and more people want a piece of the pie, but the pie is growing too slowly for everybody to get a worthwhile piece. There just aren't enough proper jobs for people with a degree.

If you're an engineer or a doctor or barrister and you're good at what you do, you won't starve. But all those kids with a liberal arts degree simply aren't qualified to work in most higher-level jobs, because their courses don't teach them hard skills. A few of them will always end up finding their place in academic research or government institutions, but there's a reason why there are so many liberal arts graduates in jobs like low- to mid-level marketing, public relations or sales. Because you learn fuck all real-world skills if you study sociology or archaeology. And so they end up occupying jobs that realistically don't need a degree at all, and by doing so, they make it harder for people who didn't go to uni but went into an apprenticeship or who are trying to learn their trade on-the-job.
>> No. 14815 Anonymous
28th September 2023
Thursday 11:02 pm
14815 spacer
>>14814

Precisely. I won't be surprised if in another decade or two they are expecting degrees for shelf stackers and burger flippers; we're already in a situation where those types of jobs are the only thing available to people without a degree. Employers are shooting themselves in the foot by making this a minimum requirement.

I once applied for a sound tech job. Didn't even get an interview. For context, as an amateur musician for most of my 20s, I co-ran a small studio for several years, I've been the sound guy on gigs, I've engineered and produced albums. But I didn't do music tech at uni. At that point I knew what I was doing and I guarantee I would've been better at that job than whatever useless Tarquin ponce they did take on, but they weren't even interested in my application.

Maybe we should just sack the whole system off and replace it with aptitude tests instead of job interviews.
>> No. 14816 Anonymous
28th September 2023
Thursday 11:28 pm
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>>14815

A sound engineering degree is probably still a hard skillset that's useful if you actually want to do something like you appear to be doing. I'm not sure you're competing with somebody with a liberal arts degree because of their liberal arts degree.

One of my acquaintances at uni was studying ethnology, but his real passion was heavy metal music. He finished his degree, but never really worked in that field, and ended up becoming a music promoter for obscure and/or foreign heavy metal bands at a music PR agency. He was originally from Poland, so he had inside knowledge of the Polish and Eastern European heavy metal scene. Bit of a niche job, but he was doing well with it.
>> No. 14817 Anonymous
28th September 2023
Thursday 11:41 pm
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>>14816

My career nowadays is totally unrelated to music, it's just one of the many things I have done over the course of my life, and I think that particular occasion was one of the times that really set off a realisation in me of how the game is rigged.

Not necessarily just rigged in favour of one group over another (though that's part of it), but just at times completely nonsensical and arbitrary. You have to be the right person in the right place at the right time and that's about it.
>> No. 14818 Anonymous
28th September 2023
Thursday 11:59 pm
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>>14815
>I once applied for a sound tech job. Didn't even get an interview.
>once applied
>once
There's your problem. You always need to apply for hundreds of jobs. I remember that after I got my Psychology degree from a top-20 Russell Group university, I took it monumentally personally when I failed in every metric of adulthood for several years, trudged sadly into Burger King, filled out an application form to flip burgers, and didn't even get an interview for that.
>> No. 14819 Anonymous
29th September 2023
Friday 11:43 am
14819 spacer
For a bit of perspective, this is what being thick and working a menial job is actually like.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjDXvXACIEA
>> No. 14820 Anonymous
29th September 2023
Friday 1:45 pm
14820 spacer
>>14819
>self reflection, insight into own behaviour
Is this even possible with an IQ of 70?
>> No. 14821 Anonymous
29th September 2023
Friday 2:46 pm
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>>14820

His IQ was measured at 70 at one point in his childhood, but that doesn't mean that his IQ is 70 now - a lot of kids are a bit ahead or behind in their development, but move closer to the average as they grow up. With that said, I doubt that his current IQ is above 80.


An IQ of 70 is low, but not extreme. 2% of the population are at or below that level. There are almost certainly people in your life with that sort of IQ, whether you realise it or not. We're talking about the slowest kid out of two form groups in your school.

At the lower end of the IQ spectrum, there's often a great deal of unevenness to mental development. Some people with severe autism are completely non-verbal, but have exceptional spatial or numerical ability. Conversely, some people with a nonverbal learning disability can converse perfectly normally, but can't tell the time or count a handful of loose change.

From a skim of his other videos, this lad clearly has broad difficulties in navigating the world. He comes across as quite articulate in this video, but in some of his other videos his speech is more meandering, disorganised and repetitive; I'd wager that he comes across as far less normal in person.

His account of working at McDonalds has a lot of echoes with the anecdote given by Jordan Peterson in the video that started this discussion. Even after months of practice and training, he was still struggling to keep up with what he describes as the simplest tasks in the restaurant. I take my hat off to the lad, because he's got far more backbone than me.
>> No. 14822 Anonymous
29th September 2023
Friday 3:18 pm
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I think we're leading onto a bigger, and perhaps, in my opinion, more interesting question, here.

Is it possible to actually become more intelligent? Can you work on your brain muscle and develop a higher IQ (let's leave aside how much of a bullshit arbitrary measurement that actually is for a moment, for sake of discussion) and make sick gains of the brain, and go from a wimpy noodle-brain to a hulking intellectual heavyweight, like you can lift lots of heavy things until you're ripped like Van Damme?

I mean, I think that's a question Jordan Peterson should be interested in, because quite apart from his politics, which I generally disagree with but find to be occasionally interesting, I've always thought the man comes across as a bit thick. If you've seen his debate with Are Slavoj he comes across like a first year uni student who stayed up too late on the WKDs the night before in comparison, it's frankly embarrassing. But what separates these two men? Is it purely genetic, or is it socialised? And if it's socialised, can we continue to work on it later in life like you can learn a new instrument or take up a new language?

>>14819
>>14821

I think cases like this guy are more than lack of intelligence, just extremely severe ADHD. It's one of those meme diagnoses that every parent wants to slap their kid with nowadays, but it really is a pretty severe impairment to genuine sufferers. You can be an Einstein super genius but if you can't wrangle your thoughts into a straight line for more than half an hour you're never going to get anywhere in life.

The brain is a hugely complex thing.
>> No. 14823 Anonymous
29th September 2023
Friday 3:51 pm
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>>14821
For me it was how he decided to film himself for Youtube with his foot on the chair like he's lecturing me about the forest.

>>14822
In terms of IQ its measured in the ability to reason which has been on a broad uptick since IQ measurements began and they've steadily made them harder over time. These days you can even see a spectrum across the world in national scoring which won't all be driven by genetics and nutrition.

I think we've all seen the opposite happen to our parents on retirement and I definitely get mentally sharper if I get back into reading even if the reason isn't quite understood. If we wanted to translate this into state policy it's pretty intuitive that we add in a mixture of books, school meals, longer and more intensive school hours and a big helping of systems and programming training for their future environment. All of which cost money so I guess that most kids can just go fuck themselves.

>I think that's a question Jordan Peterson should be interested in, because quite apart from his politics, which I generally disagree with but find to be occasionally interesting, I've always thought the man comes across as a bit thick

I think he's just got whatever Linehan caught and the chief symptom is that it makes you emotional. Like a low-level panic attack. He is objectively clever and has written much more in-depth work in his subject field on myths but I definitely noticed when I read him that something is mentally wrong going on that caused him to spit out entire droll chapters on schools and gender. Similarly in the Žižek debate he didn't even realise that he mostly agreed with him about modern academic politics but was much MUCH better read on political theory and it was foolish to make it that kind of debate.
>> No. 14824 Anonymous
29th September 2023
Friday 4:10 pm
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>>14822

I'm pretty sure there are people who just don't fully realise their potential.

For example, a friend's girlfriend, now wife, first left school at 16 and spent years working jobs as a waitress, receptionist, telesales agent or similar. And then a few years later she met my friend, who was a law school graduate and doing his thesis at the time, and one way or another, it gave her the idea that she could do more. So she went back to school to get her A levels and then completed a business degree.

The lad in the video probably has serious difficulties, but I also wouldn't take slowness or clumsiness at performing manual tasks as the best or most unequivocal indicator of somebody's intelligence. I've seen highly trained academics with PhDs struggle completely with everyday tasks. Like that one time we helped a friend move, and it took three of them more than ten minutes to load a fridge freezer into the back of an older Volvo estate with a gaping wide hatch. Another one tried to disassemble a kitchen storage cabinet and it fell in on him and hurt his head because it didn't occur to him that the walls of a cabinet don't stay up if you remove the screws that hold them together.
>> No. 14825 Anonymous
29th September 2023
Friday 4:15 pm
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>>14822

>Is it possible to actually become more intelligent?

Not to any significant extent, as far as we know. The big rise in average IQ over the last century has mainly been achieved by removing things that stunt brain development - malnutrition, lead exposure, smoking while pregnant, parasitic infections etc. There's more we can do in this respect, particularly for the most deprived children, but we've picked most of the low-hanging fruit.

Keeping people in school for longer adds, at best, 0.3 IQ points for each additional year of education, but even that is probably mostly confounded. Targeted interventions to increase IQ ("brain training") have shown negligible benefits.

>But what separates these two men? Is it purely genetic, or is it socialised?

Peterson was a very good university lecturer who was, mainly for political reasons, rapidly catapulted into the position of public intellectual. He's far from dim, he can make the average interviewer look like a chump, but he just isn't quite of the calibre of someone like Zizek. I think that Peterson was quite complacent going into the debate, because he got used to arguing with people like Cathy Newman and forgot the kind of drubbing that an Actual Professor can dole out if you stray onto their turf.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Peterson has a long history of fairly severe mental illness, which absolutely has not been helped by his fame. If you compare his old public appearances with his more recent ones, it's clear that his critical faculties are quite badly impaired by his very ragged mental health. Severe depression can often look very much like dementia.

https://gpsych.bmj.com/content/36/4/e100939
>> No. 14826 Anonymous
5th October 2023
Thursday 5:50 pm
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They're really funny at work about crossing on the stairs. I think it's a West Yorkshire thing; I never experienced it before I moved here.
>> No. 14827 Anonymous
10th October 2023
Tuesday 11:47 pm
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Week six of call centre wagie life.

I understand it's the whole point of being a customer service rep, but having to grovel to customers for someone else's fuck up is really grating on me.

Customer books an engineer appointment between 9AM and 1PM. Gets to 1PM. No engineer. I look on the system, appointment definitely booked. I phone engineer, he tells me he had another engagement in the morning so he won't be there til later that afternoon. I then have to phone the customer to explain that. The engineer has the customer's contact details, he could very easily have spared 30 seconds and sent a text letting them know he'll be late, but no I have to go back and forth and get the brunt of the anger/disappointment from the customer.

To be fair, most customers who are pissed off with us do acknowledge it's not my fault, it's the higher ups to blame, and I appreciate that. But yesterday had a woman shouting over me down the phone because my computer system was running too slowly for her tastes. I'm sure I'll get hardened to it, but I fear conflict and aggression so it's not a great job in that sense.
>> No. 14828 Anonymous
11th October 2023
Wednesday 3:36 pm
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>>14827

You certainly do get used to it. And a lot of the public are just fucking odd, so I wouldn't give it too much thought.

I would suggest spending all your free time trying to get another job outside the call centre.
>> No. 14829 Anonymous
11th October 2023
Wednesday 4:08 pm
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>>14827
>I then have to phone the customer to explain that
Whats the protocol for such situations? I'd imagine 'You're absolutely right, this is unacceptable' is unprofessional, as though you're joining the customers side of the complaint and painting the company in a bad light, but what else is there to do?

I once made a complaint about lockdown rules to a public travel service and they came back with ' I'm sorry you feel that way'.
>> No. 14830 Anonymous
11th October 2023
Wednesday 5:09 pm
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>>14829
We're not allowed to slag off the company, but we can admit some of the stuff we've done is bad and then try play up the positives. Very much a "I'm sorry but our hands are tied/I'm afraid it's just company policy" sort of thing.
>> No. 14831 Anonymous
18th October 2023
Wednesday 3:06 pm
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I didn't have a sniffle before I went into work today.
>> No. 14832 Anonymous
22nd October 2023
Sunday 7:48 pm
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My stupidly bad call on staying in a role on a counter offer for more money when I was poised to leave.

They begged me to stay, offered me more money and the autonomy to crack on with the unglamorous but important work I've been doing.

Lo and behold when it gets near the glory points my lazy manager has swooped back in, cutting me out more than I've ever been, and now I'm basically a well paid substitute on the bench unable to get a look in at the work (which they're all fucking up what little is left, because they don't get it).

Had a wobble last week and said I've had enough and now they're panicking again saying how important i am. Good luck losing the one person that has any fucking sense what's going on.
>> No. 14833 Anonymous
23rd October 2023
Monday 12:04 pm
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They like to send around an email on a Monday morning outlining who has days off this week. There's been three follow-up messages since then about people who've either changed their leave or booked a day off that's not been logged on the main records. This happens almost every single week.
>> No. 14834 Anonymous
25th October 2023
Wednesday 12:11 am
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>>14832
If you're the lad that was mulling a counter earlier, and I assume you were because there's only three of us here, that sounds like exactly the sort of thing you were warned about.

This is why the advice is to never, under any circumstances, take the counter-offer. If they wanted to pay you that much, they could have paid you that much at any time.
>> No. 14835 Anonymous
26th October 2023
Thursday 1:05 pm
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"I saw on LinkedIn you changed jobs about five months ago and I always make a note to phone people four or five months after starting a new job to see whether they're settled or if I can help them find somewhere new."

Fucking recruiters.
>> No. 14836 Anonymous
26th October 2023
Thursday 7:31 pm
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Next Tuesday (Halloween) we have an office "fuddle". We're encouraged to dress up and bring in food and stuff, and we all socialise. I don't know how it works in terms of they need staff on the phones to actually operate the business. Can we fuck customers off so we can dress as sexy nurses and eat sweeties? We also have a Halloween quiz.

Similar miserable git complaint - birthdays. If you agree to celebrate birthdays, you get assigned someone and it's your responsibility to buy them a present for their birthday. I opted out of the birthday scheme.

I find office life/politics very weird. Our floor must have spent over £100 on Halloween decorations, it just seems bizarre to me.
>> No. 14837 Anonymous
26th October 2023
Thursday 8:22 pm
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>>14836
At the last place I worked there was a birthday club where if you joined in you chipped in a quid when it was someone's birthday and you gave them the money, so you'd effectively get it back on your own birthday as some weird interest-free savings scheme. They went a bit nuts at Christmas, but that was it.

Where I work now you bring in treats for your birthday and there's no cards or presents, which is the same as at every other job I've had apart from my last one. I was working from home that day, but it does sound like they tried to make last month's Macmillan coffee morning into an all day event of fun activities.
>> No. 14838 Anonymous
31st October 2023
Tuesday 5:54 pm
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>>14836
This was as horrible as I expected, but I did most of the stuff as it was an escape from working.
>> No. 14839 Anonymous
1st November 2023
Wednesday 12:19 am
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The senior leader I report to has decided to harness my reputation for creative problem solving by holding a discussion session on key future questions for the entire organisation. Mostly how we manage ambition against a difficult fiscal and staffing environment. At 9am the morning after I've had to go to a conference all-day today and when I've been run ragged all week with work.

This is not a conductive environment for my flourishing.
>> No. 14840 Anonymous
1st November 2023
Wednesday 1:02 pm
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>>14839
>I've noticed that you're sounding very deflated this morning, can you prepare some reflections on how you're doing
>> No. 14841 Anonymous
16th November 2023
Thursday 6:18 pm
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I'm going to have to start buying jumpers because the office is slightly too cold and the women get all fussy about the heating.
>> No. 14847 Anonymous
23rd November 2023
Thursday 7:24 pm
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A couple of weeks ago I had one of the directors sound me out about a new role they are creating, essentially managing the team I'm in now with a few other responsibilities thrown in, which I said I'd be interested in. Realistically there's only one other viable candidate and I know they're interviewing for a job elsewhere so they're unlikely to go for it.

During our departmental meeting today he announced they were coming up with the role and for anyone interested in applying for it to send him an email, but then he mentioned they'd be advertising it externally as well. I don't know why, but that's left me with a bit of a weird feeling.
>> No. 14848 Anonymous
23rd November 2023
Thursday 8:39 pm
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The company that bought my company (we were a better company and yes, everyone is bitter) is going to buy all of us a Christmas present. We can choose one present from a list that was sent round today. There are two chocolate gift boxes to choose from, or you can have six bottles of wine or prosecco.

My company is 80-90% male, and they have wine and prosecco but no beer. One of the only women in the company is in charge of choosing the gifts. Also, one of the chocolate gift boxes can't be got any more because the company stopped making them in October, which makes me feel like we were an afterthought for the company that bought us and that they sorted all their Christmas presents out two months ago.

I know you shouldn't complain about a gift, and I know this site has longstanding issues etc etc, and that's why I'm not complaining at all. I am merely stating the facts as I see them.
>> No. 14849 Anonymous
30th November 2023
Thursday 5:50 pm
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At some point in December we've got a celebration day, where instead of having our regular team meeting and our individual lunches, we get a 1.5 hour mega lunch for socialising and Christmas activities. I'm dreading it because I have no social skills, but then again 1.5 hours away from the job instead of just 30 minutes is appealing.
>> No. 14850 Anonymous
30th November 2023
Thursday 6:35 pm
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We've got an office jobsworth. I'm not entirely sure what her job title is but most of her tasks could easily be automated through spreadsheets or using our client management system better and I think she is aware of this, so she gets very petty about the general upkeep of the office to try and seem important.

Today she started complaining when someone on the other side of the office had a heater under their desk, saying it hadn't been PAT tested. When it turns out that wasn't the case she started whining saying we shouldn't have them at all "because of health and safety". Last week she got her knickers in a twist because she was about to challenge visitors for using out car parking spaces and went on a long tirade about using the meeting room calendars properly; the meeting had been booked in absolutely fine. The week before that she was moaning about the window cleaner because he'd cleaned the insides as well, as he usually does, but he'd had to open the new blinds to do this and because he doesn't work here he won't have seen her email about how expensive the new blinds were and how we have to be careful with them and why didn't anyone think of telling him about them?

She regularly sends out emails on anything she can think of, such as regularly sanitising your work station, making sure you clean the microwave after use, how to stack cups and glasses in the dishwasher, how to correctly store any laptops you've taken home when you return them. Any old shit.
>> No. 14851 Anonymous
30th November 2023
Thursday 7:58 pm
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Sweet suffering fuck. I would be choking down sarcastic reply-all emails.
Does she have an actual job?
Maybe worth thinking about the cost of (emails * recipients * 5 minutes attentive reading each) and putting a price on this fuckwittery?
>> No. 14852 Anonymous
30th November 2023
Thursday 11:18 pm
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>>14851

Fortunately for her, ChatGPT is unstintingly polite and helpful, so her job is safe for now.
>> No. 14853 Anonymous
1st December 2023
Friday 9:17 pm
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Work in energy. Had a customer call without hot water. Next appointment available is in a week's time. She says it's an emergency as she has kids, youngest being 8. I foolishly say we only consider children 5 or under as priority.

15 minutes later my colleague approaches me and says she called back saying she needs an emergency appointment because she's got a five year old child at home. If I were in the customer's shoes I probably would have done the same. But what do you do in that situation? Accuse them of lying?
>> No. 14854 Anonymous
1st December 2023
Friday 10:14 pm
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>>14853
Tell her she meant to say five and give her an emergency appointment in the first place. You work for a fucking energy company, the least you could do is cheat the bastards a bit.
>> No. 14855 Anonymous
1st December 2023
Friday 11:14 pm
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>>14853
You're a customer service agent. Start serving customers and drop the copper role play.
>> No. 14856 Anonymous
1st December 2023
Friday 11:19 pm
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>>14853
Why do you give a fuck? It's the coldest weather this year you monster.
>> No. 14858 Anonymous
1st December 2023
Friday 11:40 pm
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>>14853
Of course she's going to lie, she's going to look after her kids and knows there's not anything someone who wears a headset for a living can do about it. Next time apologies for the situation and say you'll make a note rather than telling someone how to subvert your own programme.

>>14854
>>14855
>>14856
What exactly do you think the energy company is doing wrong in this situation? There have limited engineers, a surge in demand and they're triaging coverage on need.
>> No. 14859 Anonymous
2nd December 2023
Saturday 10:26 am
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>>14854
>>14855
>>14856
>>14858
I did genuinely try to get her seen the first time but it was literally impossible. The main issue is we've got a shortage of engineers. Our procedures mean we can cancel non-essential appointments for people with loss of supply, but can't cancel one loss of heating/hot water for another. I tried to get her an out of hours appointment for the evening of the day she called, but was told by higher ups that there's no availability at all.

When I asked my supervisor what the protocol is when a customer changes details in this way, she told me we have to press the customer to find out the truth. Luckily it was my colleague dealing with this bit.

Some people are waiting over two weeks to get their heating fixed. I've worked in a lot of customer service roles, but never felt like such a bastard until this one.
>> No. 14865 Anonymous
18th December 2023
Monday 12:46 pm
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I guess it's less of an annoyance and more of something I find really bizarre but, for some reason, at work all of the men get addressed by their full forename. Not even my parents call me by that.

I don't know, maybe one day I'll be enough of a maverick to start referring to people as "Joe, Matt, Tim or Nick" instead of having to say "Joseph, Matthew, Timothy or Nicholas" every single time and see what happens.
>> No. 14871 Anonymous
2nd January 2024
Tuesday 12:53 pm
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It turns out it's tradition for the women at work to bring in all the chocolate and junk they've received over Christmas which they won't eat at home. I've already eaten enough as it is over the past week, I don't need a mountain of chocolate near my desk.
>> No. 14872 Anonymous
24th January 2024
Wednesday 12:10 am
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I just wish that I could do one thing at a time.
>> No. 14895 Anonymous
14th March 2024
Thursday 4:08 pm
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Can you lads recommend a decent and inexpensive hands-free kit? There's a lass in my team who has ADHD and autism who calls me every day and I'm lucky if she's on for less than an hour.
>> No. 14896 Anonymous
14th March 2024
Thursday 5:25 pm
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>>14895

https://www.amazon.co.uk/soundcore-Wireless-Bluetooth-Water-Resistant-Customization-Black/dp/B0BTYCRJSS/
>> No. 14897 Anonymous
14th March 2024
Thursday 6:53 pm
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When a customer is unhappy or explicitly raises a complaint, it goes on the caseload of the advisor who picked up the phone/email. So if someone rings up to moan her bills are high (as happened this week), I have to investigate and take responsibility for it.

We are monitored on complaint compliance and can face sanctions for not being compliant. A month or so ago I built up 18 complaints. I got in trouble for this, they distributed 8 to other advisors, and said if I don't buck my ideas up I'll get put on an informal plan. BUT because I'm on a final warning because of attendance, that informal plan would trigger dismissal. Why excess sickness in the same category as performance, but lateness isn't, I'm not sure.

But complaints are a Sisyphean task. Every time that phone rings, it's a dice roll whether I'll get a new complaint. If you're found to have not raised a formal complaint based on the customer's tone, that's a failure. But then it's a situation where I am scared to raise a complaint unless they explicitly ask for it, because it adds to my caseload.

Complaints can only be worked by one person per team at any given time. Today I came in an hour early unpaid, just to get time to work on today's actions. I'm probably going to have to work a couple of hours unpaid at the weekend to keep on top of things. Other people do this too.

I'm thinking of killing myself at work tomorrow on Red Nose Day, the day of laughter, because I think that would be funny and subversive.

Sorry for rambling my head gets in a bad way during/after work.
>> No. 14898 Anonymous
14th March 2024
Thursday 8:53 pm
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>>14897
Have you considered doing literally any other job? Even if you lose the next job after three months because of too many absences again, surely that's still a better three months than three more months of what you're doing now.
>> No. 14899 Anonymous
14th March 2024
Thursday 9:23 pm
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>>14897
Please tell me you work for OvoEnergy..
>> No. 14900 Anonymous
14th March 2024
Thursday 9:32 pm
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>>14898
I've applied to go part time as I think that might make things (other than complaints I guess) more manageable. I've been offered a place at uni so if I can hold out six more months.

>>14899
No, another much bigger energy corp.
>> No. 14901 Anonymous
14th March 2024
Thursday 10:14 pm
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>>14897
>I'm thinking of killing myself
Hey! Me too! But it sounds like things might be on the up for you by the end of the year, so hold off for now, even though I'm usually game for anything "funny and subversive".

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