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150615061506
>> No. 1506 Anonymous
26th January 2011
Wednesday 1:29 am
1506 Preparations for life without oil?
Hi eco/
It's my first time straying into this section and I've not lurked here as much as I should but I require your advice urgently.

It has recently be brought to my attention that we are becoming very close to peak oil where the oil used in the drilling process will give the same or less than remains in the ground. The first warning of this global energy deficit will be a global economic recession. Tick.
Then the breakdown of civilisation as we know it, war, famine etc... Our whole economy revolves around oil, used in transport, household and agro- chemicals, packaging.

So... what do I do now that I've become aware of the problem? Where do I start? I know it's too little too late but I need to prepare something as the collapse is coming and faster that the media let on.
Expand all images.
>> No. 1507 Anonymous
26th January 2011
Wednesday 7:23 am
1507 spacer
>>1506

Diversify your energy source dependencies. Start storing fuels of various sorts. Make sure you can use whatever you can get in your tools. Buy a bike if you can't get a horse. High tech renewables like solar and wind are useful, as is the low tech like wood. Even coal and peat are options (peat being renewable). Just remember that no matter what your life will still change and so will the world. You can prevent discomfort though. Things will become more localised as the distances seem further.

Prep in other areas too.
>> No. 1508 Anonymous
26th January 2011
Wednesday 8:59 am
1508 spacer
>>1506

Always great to see someone aware of what is going on around them. Even if it is getting short on time, you will always be better off for something than having nothing, which a little preparation can give you.

What resources do you have? What kind of area are you in? City centre? Your own farm? Village? Woodland? All things to consider.
>> No. 1509 Anonymous
26th January 2011
Wednesday 1:26 pm
1509 spacer
I'll be pushing 70 when the best estimates say we'll run out, and presumably so will you. I would just concentrate dying around about the last barrel.
>> No. 1510 Anonymous
26th January 2011
Wednesday 2:45 pm
1510 spacer
>>1509

>run out

There's the mistake.
>> No. 1511 Anonymous
26th January 2011
Wednesday 2:54 pm
1511 spacer
This combined with the food problems spells disaster for countless millions, possibly billions.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1350009/Food-prices-rocket-50-global-hunger-epidemic-causes-riots-famines.html
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Sarkozy-appeals-for-G20-moves-on-food-prices-tax-DEF3N?opendocument&src=rss
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70O0AJ20110125
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2011/01/24/sarkozy-food-commodity.html?ref=rss

Prices of everything will shoot up. What is already scarce and expensive will become out of reach.
>> No. 1512 Anonymous
26th January 2011
Wednesday 3:12 pm
1512 spacer
Get some land, stash fuel, water sterilisation tablets and food, and make sure that you have an axe, a spade and a good bucket. You might like to plant some fruit trees now, that they might bear fruit so many years down the line.
These latest food problems will cost us all a little bit, but no-one will starve in the Western world for a while yet. If you are worried, though, learn to grow more of your own food, and to make the most of what food you have.
>> No. 1513 Anonymous
26th January 2011
Wednesday 5:53 pm
1513 spacer
The Chinese are going to eat us alive, that's all you need to know.
>> No. 1514 Anonymous
26th January 2011
Wednesday 8:03 pm
1514 spacer
>>1513

Spot on, sadly.

>>1509

This guy doesn't have a clue, judging from his statement. I would agree that remaining calm for now is the best thing to do, while preparing as best you can until the crunch.
>> No. 1515 Anonymous
26th January 2011
Wednesday 8:05 pm
1515 spacer
I've got food for over a year, water, clothes, tools, seeds and fuel. If I was the last man alive on Earth tomorrow I'd not be the least bit uncomfortable for at least a year and could survive for longer.
>> No. 1517 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 1:27 am
1517 spacer
>>1514

I thought we has a good forty or fifty years left of oil left? I presume that is at the current rate of consumption, but how rapidly is that consumption rising? If we don't have a substitute by then humanity deserves to walk everywhere die.
>> No. 1518 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 4:13 am
1518 spacer
>>1517

OP here, although we have reserves of oil, getting to them is the hard bit. It will use more energy than we will gain so although we will have supply the cost of that supply will be very expensive so it's an energy cliff not a curve.

Thanks for the advice ladmates

>1515
I found the PDF on the subject very helpful however when printed the hyperlinks are not so informative. When the power runs out, the printed word will be all we have. I suggest that in the next revision a quoted and referenced copy of the web pages be included if possible.
>1508
I live in a mid town house with a small yard and work minimum wage, not ideal. I could grow a few things but the yard is east facing and doesn't get much sun at any time.
>> No. 1519 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 7:14 am
1519 spacer
>>1518

>energy cliff not a curve.

Yup, plus there are the social problems and panic when people realise what is going on. They aren't going to watch the sands in the glass run out with calm or accept the constantly worsening conditions easily.

Minimum wage is enough to get some things prepared. You can get food while it is cheap. Are you planning on staying there for the duration or do you have a spot in mind to go to, just in case?
>> No. 1520 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 10:09 am
1520 spacer
It's a shame this place is anonymous in some ways as we could arrange bulk buying and such for stocking up otherwise.
>> No. 1521 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 1:51 pm
1521 spacer
I think you're all being very pessimistic. I personally think things will trundle on ok, governments will invest in other energy sources as and when it becomes necessary and/or economically viable. I don't think many people in the developed world really need to worry about it that much.
People love to believe that their generation is the one that's going to live through the apocalypse/collapse of civilization etc. They rarely are, and imho it's more of an egotistical thing assuming that everything will go down the shitter on your watch.
I also think it has to do with peoples lives generally being pretty mundane and boring and a post-apocalyptic world would obviously be much more exciting than having to go to your shitty minimum wage job for another 40 odd years.
But whatever I'm probably just another naive sheeple going about my business while the sky falls in.
Sage for being thoroughly un-eco.
>> No. 1522 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 2:47 pm
1522 spacer
>>1521

While in most circumstances I'd agree with you, if oil truly is going to run out before we're fully prepared for it, we'd be royally screwed. Even though I agree with you that we probably will have alternate infrastructure in place by then, I'm still going to be stocking up on beans when I get a place of my own.
>> No. 1523 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 3:03 pm
1523 spacer
>>1522

Stocking up on beans is always a good idea anyway. You can never have too many beans.
>> No. 1525 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 4:37 pm
1525 spacer
>>1521

The poster boy for the Dunning–Kruger effect.
>> No. 1526 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 5:49 pm
1526 spacer
>>1525

Well reading back my post I guess it does come off as a bit condescending. I didn't really mean it to, and I have no illusions about my knowledge of petroleum geology (I don't have much).
As I said I just think a lot of people seem incredibly pessimistic about humans ability to adapt, survive and flourish in spite of huge obstacles.
Also, and I could be spouting shite here, aren't most peak oil predictions just estimates. I would imagine it's pretty hard to accurately say how much oil there is left and how just how quickly we will run out. But if any petroleum geology students or oil industry people ( I'm sure there was one guy who posted here) want to point out how naive and stupid I am feel free.
Or just use your superior metacognitive abilities to send me in the direction of a wikipedia article about how stupid I am.
>> No. 1527 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 7:53 pm
1527 spacer
It's not transport or energy production that bothers me. The EU is heading for 100% renewable energy by 2050 and viable electric motors have been around for decades. It could even lead to a global renaissance in train and ocean travel as air dies a death, which could be lovely. The thing that gets me is plastic. What the hell are we going to do when there is no more new plastic being created?

I would presume a process that uses a non-oil base would take it's place.
>> No. 1528 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 10:34 pm
1528 spacer
>>1506
Get a good job & earn lots of money. Resource shortages won't cause the power structure to collapse; they will merely make it more violent. By integrating yourself into the power structure, you will be protected.

Those hippies with their self-sufficient eco farms OTOH... how on earth are they going to defend themselves when the army is ordered to commandeer all fertile land, "to feed the people"?

Sorry for being such a cynic!
>> No. 1529 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 10:53 pm
1529 spacer
>>1527
We'll make do with less stuff. We won't, because we'll synthesise things from plants, or the air, or whatever, but it would be sensible to make do with less stuff.
>> No. 1530 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 11:11 pm
1530 spacer
In Yugoslavia the farms were hit the worst of all by the bandits. What went on with them was apalling (although not out of the norm for such a situation wherever you go in the world). Naturally the devestation of these farms only made the situation for everyone worse as food production tends to drop off after you rob, rape and murder the farmer and his family. Bandits don't think long-term or altruistically though.

It did show what happens when people are hungry, angry and desperate though. There were various parts that were hit bad and some weathered it better. You can learn a lot about tomorrow from looking at yesterday. Hippies would be raped and killed in a SHTF situation. They'd need to be hippies who are able and are willing to shoot and kill to survive and had large enough numbers to back it up.

>>1527

I'm sure if they aim to make us all a thousand feet high and made of solid gold by 2020 we can all sleep easy too.

There are endless uses of oil and plastics is just one of them. Windmills and electric cars aren't going to cut it, even if the pipe dreams of the EU were to be believed.
>> No. 1531 Anonymous
27th January 2011
Thursday 11:46 pm
1531 spacer
It's plain common sense to be prepared. Does anyone really think Gordon Brown, Dave and all the other idiots in charge are trustworthy for a worst case scenario or actually preparing everyone for the future or will create a master plan to save them from whole cloth once the disaster is on your doorstop? They couldn't be trusted to make a cup of tea.

After constant failures, lies, disappointments and driving the country (and similar governments doing the same in other countries) into the ground, people will turn around and imagine these people will somehow magically become their saviours and miracle workers when needed. It's like watching a battered wife go back to her husband again and again. The brains have been knocked out of such people long ago. They cannot think rationally any more or understand consequences. The penny will not drop until the cupboards are bare or the water is around their neck and their "saviours" are off over the horizon wishing them good luck. The nanny state won't shield you from all ills or rescue you from them either.

No generation believes it is the one who will have to go through hell. Bad things only happen to other people. Peace in our time. It'll all be over by Christmas. Duck and cover. That couldn't happen to us. Someone will do something about it. We'll get around to sorting the levees eventually. The war to end all wars.

I'm sure pop-psychology, emo hair and teen cynicism will ward off everything. Perhaps an ironic t-shirt too. The Earth and universe itself will cease all cycles in the face of such opposition and a new golden age will bloom and never again will bad things happen to good people. Cancel all the insurance. Throw out the spare tire, first aid kits and fire extinguishers.

It's not a case of 'if' a disaster happens, but 'when'. They will happen and will happen to people so long as the species continues. Natural and man-made disasters are certain to happen, as are generally awful times. It is completely naive and ignorant to think they can never happen. Few if any here say something will happen tomorrow. They are preparing for long term and as insurance. It's just as sensible as it is to have home contents insurance or a fire extinguisher. People don't normally get them because they know for certain that their house is about to burn to the ground. They only need to be sensible enough to see the potential for disaster and that sitting on your arse and expecting others to come and drag you out of the fire every time in a split second and sort it all out for you is foolishness.

Being ready for what you can be is entirely sensible. Ironically, we are in the fortunate and unique situation in Mankind's history to be able to prepare ourselves to a degree unimagined in times gone by and yet never before have we had such a dangerously fragile system and completely unprepared population. In times past they knew to stock the granary during times of plenty so to survive the lean times. Many of our ancestors will have survived purely because of such precaution. Years of easy living make people soft and ignorant to the point they think everything will be handed to them on a silver platter forever.

Also, people who use "imho" in cold blood are foul creatures and deserve no sympathy. A hideous death at the hands of creepy children from horror films wielding pliers is the only end they deserve.
>> No. 1532 Anonymous
28th January 2011
Friday 10:10 am
1532 spacer
Uh oh: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/damian-carrington-blog/2011/jan/28/climate-change-food-bubble?CMP=twt_fd
>> No. 1533 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 12:14 am
1533 spacer
>>1528 here.

>>1531
> No generation believes it is the one who will have to go through hell. Bad things only happen to other people.
It's really difficult to see these things coming though isnt it? A few smart people saw the potential in naziism and skidaddled from germany before WW2 but I'm not sure we're really feeling that degree of heat just yet. And where would we go? And how would we prepare? The whole world is pretty similar nowadays. All I can imagine for now is integrating myself nicely into the economy and being saved as a result.

> I'm sure pop-psychology, emo hair and teen cynicism will ward off everything. Perhaps an ironic t-shirt too. The Earth and universe itself will cease all cycles in the face of such opposition and a new golden age will bloom and never again will bad things happen to good people.
No! The answer is to trust in Jesus! The Bible tells me so!

So does anyone else have better ideas of how to prepare? Bury gold/guns? Massive cachet of tesco value baked beans? Do tell.
>> No. 1534 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 12:19 am
1534 spacer
>>1533

Why would anyone want to guide you by the hand through it all? You sound determined not to do anything and frankly you sound like you deserve to be weeded out, judging by your tone. Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say. No one should have to spend hours dragging a stubborn unlikeable man to the lifeboat.
>> No. 1535 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 12:35 am
1535 spacer
I say with confidence that anybody who hasn't realized something is wrong by now ... is not going to realize it later.

Anybody who has not gotten it yet, has bad animal instincts. Their survival intuition isn't working and that puts them in the 99.999999999% of creatures that have ever existed who are now extinct genetic lines.

If you don't get it by now, you are never going to get it.
>> No. 1536 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 12:53 am
1536 spacer
>>1535

With regards to that percentage, I think it's worth taking stock of past crises; few people have ever prepared, but even in the terrible ravages of war and famine and drought, it's very, very rare that when all's said and done, the majority of people will not have survived. I'm not talking about some tiny minority dead, but more often than not, when things come to a head, more than 50% live to tell the tale.
>> No. 1538 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 3:19 am
1538 spacer

frazer.jpg
153815381538

>> No. 1539 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 12:23 pm
1539 spacer
>>1536

>when things come to a head, more than 50% live to tell the tale.

Brainwashed. Clueless. Doesn't understand Earth's history. Doesn't understand the game-changing events that are happening all around them.

You're already dead. You just don't know it. Your ideas are starting to sound positively schizophrenic in light of what is actually happening all around you.

You've got beads of sweat running down your forehead and a nervous grin going "Well, we all have opinions and this or that could mean anything, it's all an opinion and what have you and whatnot." That's postmodernism. It's like someone spraypainted your forehead with a red "X" and put a label through your ear that reads MARKED FOR MASS BURIAL.

While you waffle with sophistry like somebody who got all their own inputs plugged into their outputs, the real world is changing quite rapidly. Both you and 99% of the sheeple are being left behind in a vaccuum of your own squawking feedback.

This is what happens when you base your ideas on the consensus. You will die when it turns out once again, the consensus was wrong. There are people right now floating belly down in Australian rivers who were expecting a drought for the next hundred years under global warming. It didn't occur to them to move out of those floodplains they live in because they were living in a world where there would be no rain.

You don't know it but you're already dead. The ideas you cling to from the mass media orifice are beginning to sound absolutely ridiculous compared to what is going on right outside your own window.

Might want to forget your ideology nipple from the televitz and cover your own ass, cuz it is starting to get real hairy around here.
>> No. 1540 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 1:57 pm
1540 spacer
>>1539

Not who you're replying to, but does it not get tiring constantly thinking that the world is about to collapse?

Also you sound like a condescending cunt.
>> No. 1541 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 4:11 pm
1541 spacer
>>1539
> You don't know it but you're already dead. The ideas you cling to from the mass media orifice are beginning to sound absolutely ridiculous compared to what is going on right outside your own window.

Well. Erm. If I look outside my window, I see a nice sunset on a cold January day. There were some piss artists out last night but its all calm now. There's the distant sound of some children shrieking happily. I then walk to the front of the house and see cars driving calmly down the road, I see some lads playing in the park opposite, along with a dad teaching his 3 kids to play football. I see a mother and her kid with his scooter., I see a couple of girls casually walking down the road and I see a couple of bored people waiting at the bus stop.

So, where the hell do you live? Mogadishu?
>> No. 1542 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 4:55 pm
1542 spacer

20071125_paedofinder.jpg
154215421542
>>1541

You seem to spend a lot of time watching and taking careful notes of boys and girls outside your window...
>> No. 1544 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 6:24 pm
1544 spacer
>>1542
Damn! You're onto me!

* makes quick escape *
>> No. 1545 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 9:04 pm
1545 spacer

itscoming.png
154515451545
War, famine, plague, earthquakes and volcanic disruption and death. Ash clouds that blot out the sun. Solar flares that wipe out our technology and then solar stillnes that freezes what is left.

The apocalypse trifecta.
>> No. 1546 Anonymous
30th January 2011
Sunday 10:13 pm
1546 spacer
>>1506

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/8288555/Authoritarian-governments-start-stockpiling-food-to-fight-public-anger.html

ITS COMING
>> No. 1552 Anonymous
5th February 2011
Saturday 11:05 am
1552 spacer
OP here
>>1546 I'm not sure why you saged that link
>Egypt, which has seen several days of unrest in part provoked by high food prices, is expected to follow.

Running out of food is the start of the second stage. This is going to get much worse before it gets better.

I'm glad this thread didn't turn into a willy waving contest and offers helpful advice.

So after stocking up (supermarkets only keep enough food for about 3 days) then what do we do? My best guess is that peak oil will hit 2013-2015 and alternatives won't kick in until 2030. France has been building nuke powerplants ready for this, we have a bit of coal in Wales still.
Transport isn't really the issue, it's agrochemicals. Without afforable oil we won't get the food yeilds expected. 1 tonne of food takes 100 tonnes of oil to get on your plate with current farming methods and global transport costs.
The climate change isn't going to help matters. Have no illusions, we are not heading for a eutopia with recreational wind/sea travel. When this hits and it will it's going to be harsh.
>> No. 1553 Anonymous
5th February 2011
Saturday 2:35 pm
1553 spacer
>>1552

Seeing as you mentioned stocking up:

If you're looking for large size tins then get to Lidl. The German quality is actually surprisingly good. Better than their equivalent in the UK and Lidl seem to do a good line of quality tinned food. They now sell extra large tins too. You can get huge 1Kg tins of tuna, for instance or 1.2Kg tins of chili. To introduce this new line they've dropped the prices of many of their tinned items by 30% or more. I spent a fair bit of money there the other day but came away with a huge amount of food. Enough for a couple of months of good eating for less than even a week's wage for the people working in that shop. Take advantage of this offer and low price while you can. They also have an offer on extra large pasta packs and multi buying instant noodles.

If you check the dates on those tins too they are often good for 4-6 years at least (offical printed dates, but likely survive longer, especially with careful storage). These German tins are usually dated for longer than ours.

Storing food is the most important thing. Storing water is important too, but in this country a filter system could be an option. Store some clean water (a couple of weeks to a few months, depending on your space) for the short term and a filter system for longer term.

After that you want sanitation (toilet facilities, soap, bin bags, toilet paper, tooth paste and brushes, etc.), fuel, heating, shelter, clothes, shoes and tools. Transport is possible - pedal power will still work and so will horses. Bikes or trikes are easy enough for most people to have.

Lastly and by no means the least important - you need knowledge and skills. Practice and learn now, because it is easy to do so while you are comfortable and well fed. Learn how to grow something. Learn how to use, look after and sharpen tools. Practice starting a fire or using a needle and thread or even repairing machines. I'm sure you can think of things you need and rely upon.

It will get much worse before it gets better and it will be very bad at its worst, but if you can be somewhat prepared for it then you'll at least have some comforts and be less desperate. A look at previous depressions and people were catching any animals they could for protein - sparrows and pigeons for trade and food. Millions died and vanished, many more lived hard, hard lives - and that was simply with an economic bubble, an artificial and man made event centred around our absurd system.

When nature decides to join in the pile-on with a few dozen kicks to the ribs while we are down then it will be far, far worse than before. Hard limits will be a game-breaker.

What really confuses most people when you or I talk of these things is that they think all is well, so why worry now? Fair enough for them, but the difference is that they don't look any farther than the end of the boat, we are looking out over the sea to the iceberg ahead. The grasshopper VS the ant viewpoint.
>> No. 1554 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 1:23 am
1554 spacer
What we are seeing developing are not isolated incidents around the world, these are all part of what will be remembered as the first Great War of the new millenium. Civil war spreads to regional and then to world war. Economic and trade wars lead to true wars. Cold wars become hot.
>> No. 1555 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 12:14 pm
1555 spacer
when it gets too costly electricity suppliers will just switch to nuclear power,

The motor industry will just have to become more efficent with it's fuel consumption to combat the rising price or the cost of creating oil from other sources that is of course assuming hydrogen production never takes off.

There isn't going to be some sort of apocalypse where infrastructure just stops, no mater how much you want to live in that world.
>> No. 1556 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 1:11 pm
1556 spacer
>>1555

With the power of happy thoughts we will simply convert the cars, industries and world around now to run on rainbows and giggles instead!

They'll just have to do magic because otherwise you might be inconvenienced! It doesn't matter about timescales, impracticality or the lack of materials, it'll just magically happen because otherwise you might not get your coco pops in the morning.

Someone should have told all those starving people in Africa that they will just have to become more food efficient. That would mean that all the troubles would have been solved overnight. Genius!

You are hopeless. There's something on your forehead. It says MARKED FOR MASS BURIAL.
>> No. 1557 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 2:58 pm
1557 spacer
>>1555

You should, like, totally write to the professors of the smarty pants university and say they should make cars that run on cold fusion or zero point energy just like in the sci-fi for us and they'll be like "WHOA, dude! That's the best idea ever! Thanks for suggesting it so we can now make it in no time at all because we were just sniffing each other's ringpieces here before now!". They'll have the drawings done by the weekend and a prototype by the thursday after. It'll be on the shelves of Poundland a week after! Plastics, fertilisers, fuel , etc. will all be replaced overnight with this wonder of yours. YOU'VE SAVED US ALL FLASH! GO FLASH GO! GO FLASH GO!
>> No. 1558 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 4:42 pm
1558 spacer
>>1556

I understand your point, but be fair; cars have come on quite remarkably in terms of efficiency. If push comes to shove, it isn't all that hard simply not to close down the existing electricity infrastructure, a little tired though it. where fuel's concerned, most of us could wash less, travel less make clothes go further, do without lights more of the time and turn down the heating without devastating consequences.
>> No. 1559 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 5:50 pm
1559 spacer
>>1558

Turning down the heating and using less water for the dishes is nice and all, but it is not going to do anything worth while. It's the kind of feel good green stuff people are told to do to by tellybox to "save the environment/whales/forests/etc." because it is easy and makes them feel good. Sadly, most easy things rarely do much real good.

Unless someone makes a car that is 110% efficient and squirts out barrels of oil, manufactures millions overnight at zero cost of oil for production and hands them out for free around the world it won't change the end result we are headed for. The trends were set in motion and just like a train or large lorry up at speed that momentum can't be dumped instantly, it takes time to slow down and time to change to another track or road. If you are sensible you don't start budgeting carefully after you spent 99% of your money, you do it from day one. We're a day away from the creditors sending the bailiffs and we're thinking about changing from champagne to beer to save the day.

Far too little, too late. We need revolutionary changes in technology and we needed it yesterday for a smooth transition. We may get that technology, but it won't happen in time now to save people from very hard times. It won't be the end of the world or even Man, but it will be a very hard time until things get going again.
>> No. 1560 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 7:16 pm
1560 spacer
>>1559
I didn't mean to imply that such actions would save the world; I meant that when supplies become more constrained, we might, purely out of necessity, manage to survive with significantly less stuff without that heralding the end of civilisation.
>> No. 1561 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 7:25 pm
1561 spacer
>>1560

We'd be back to wood stoves, local farms and cottage industries. The problem is that this level of production is no where near enough for today's population and infrastructure and the population is completely unprepared. The die-off rate in the first two years would be tremendous.

We will have to survive with less, because the alternative is death, but the amount produced will not be enough for all, quite likely even for the most basic of life or survival.

It won't be the end of civilisation if some survive, but what it will be like and how many will make it is another question altogether.

The real clincher is that wars and all manner of unpleasantness will make it far worse than it would have to be and there will certainly be such things, for we fight even in times of plenty without desperation to fuel it. When people are in a weakened state they are more vulnerable to disease, natural disaster, war and so on. It won't be an easy ride even in the best of circumstances.

An economic depression alone can kill millions and leave others in terrible conditions. Imagine what would happen with all of these other things rolled into one.

I have no doubt people will try to get by and try to survive, but it won't make it easy and for some that instinct will spur them on to new horrors.
>> No. 1563 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 10:17 pm
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>>1561
I hate this. See, I'm fairly competent in the garden; I fancy my odds in many respects against the general population; I don't seem to get ill much compared to others, I can grow food and I can cook; I have a basic knowledge of mushrooms too, and a fair few of books (hard copies, of course) on survival. But when it descends into lawlessness, with the most heavily armed the strongest, I'm fucked. I could be an asset; indeed, most of the looters and pillagers will die out, totally unable to sustain themselves, when what they've stolen runs out. And I'm quite sure that the fuckers will destroy me, and countless other competent people like me, before they go. It's galling, it really is.
>> No. 1564 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 10:26 pm
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>>1563
What basic knowledge would that be sir, Hands on experience?
>> No. 1565 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 10:50 pm
1565 spacer
>>1563

This is why I don't plan to go it alone and I'd always suggest to others to make similar plans. You need a group. Two heads are better than one. Whatever works for you. Family, survivalist/prepper networks, close friends you can trust with your life, neighbours, whatever you can seriously plan for.

The vast majority of hermits trying to go it alone would fail shortly. Only about a handful of the most dedicated with expensive hidden bunkers in a desert would have a chance of that and even they would need a family or friends with them in this hidden place. Everyone else should try to work with others. Even if you had all the food and arms in the world you have to sleep at some point and then some nobhead can rob you or cave your head in with a brick.

People always think I am anti-social or hateful when I talk of these things and make plans, but my plans are for groups and communities. It's that which will last long term. I plan to thrive, not survive. You'll need bodies to work and watch and people to lend a hand, specialise and so on. You can't be a doctor, farmer, and blacksmith all day every day. It was groups that pulled together in depressions and groups that pulled together for times of lawlessness.

Groups will be able to weather it better. Having a core you can trust now and practice and plan with will help set you up quickly and with less trust issues. You have two options - hide and become semi-nomadic, wandering and running from danger or plan on permanent settlement and rebuilding for the future. From there you want to think of building - slowly - a village or haven to survive in. It would be hard as you'd want to think of think of a size that suits the sustainability of your area and still be able to know them well and trust them.

There's no easy choices and no way to be sure, but there are strategies and good educated guesses using the past and present to gauge it from. There are some things that have come close.

The first year or two would likely be the worst. After that even bandits realise that raping and pillaging doesn't have much of a future if there are no crops being grown. You'll have to hope you can keep your head down for that period. The best would be for them to expend themselves fighting each other and then the competent people like you and others can start trying to rebuild things with other decent people and innocents left over.

It's a whole new world and game to puzzle over.
>> No. 1566 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 11:00 pm
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>>1563

For example, just imagine if you did grow food. It would be swarming with human pests in no time at all if you were alone. You'd go foraging or trading only to come back home and find it looted. You'd go asleep and wake up to the place being raided.

A band of the most hopeless retards could make your life living hell. It wouldn't require heavily armed and the strongest, only determined or desperate groups. And they will be desperate and determined because they will be hungry. It won't require skills or discipline for them to be a problem. Especially for a lone individual.

It is a horrifying thought, but better faced with comrades.
>> No. 1567 Anonymous
6th February 2011
Sunday 11:10 pm
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Another tip. Don't rely on hunting. Any animal with a pulse will be killed and eaten in no time and their populations devestated. This is standard in such times and the populations have got much higher since last time people were desperate enough.

Mushrooms will be renewable as picking the fruiting body doesn't destroy the mycorrhiza that makes up the main fungus and people are generally less knowledgable about these things. There will still be people grabbing at them in hope though and other mushroom pickers.

What you store now and what you can grow later with the seeds and tools and land you've already prepared is what you should think of relying on. If you do bag a deer or a pigeon then that's gravy, but don't expect it and plan on it being reliable. A lot of these survival plans/books are for people living in wilderness or being one survivor with all that land without human competition, rather than with desperate mobs eating everything and anything with a calorie. They are still very useful though and will give a good edge over anyone dropped into such a situation unprepared.
>> No. 1568 Anonymous
7th February 2011
Monday 1:42 am
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>>1555
> when it gets too costly electricity suppliers will just switch to nuclear power,
I really hope not. The return for nuclear power is instant - huge amounts of cheap, clean electricity. The cost, however, entails managing a huge pile of biologically incompatible garbage for a VERY long time. Overall, its a huge loser.

> hydrogen production
from what primary energy source? Hydrogen is for storage and transport only: it is NOT a source.

>>1556
> With the power of happy thoughts we will simply convert the cars, industries and world around now to run on rainbows and giggles instead!
guess we're all a bit fucked around here then. Unless you can modify them to run on whinge.

> Someone should have told all those starving people in Africa that they will just have to become more food efficient.
Quite so. They need to take collective responsibility for their food production instead of fighting silly wars and relying on Western aid to fill their stomachs when their agricultural sector no longer exists. They need to start thinking, band together, and fight against exploitative western corporations. They need to undertake proper family planning and not have kids where food supplies are not guarenteed.

Yeah, fucking right the Africans need to sort themselves out. But they don't like thinking; they don't like logic. They prefer the immediacy of intense emotion and feeling and living irresponsibly in the moment. On one hand, it means problems never get solved; on the other, it means they are more accepting of suffering and more content in squalor.

Not racist. Just observant. (besides, it's not race - it's culture).
>> No. 1569 Anonymous
7th February 2011
Monday 1:53 am
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>>1566
Add some racial overtones and you're writing about the situation in Zimbabwe right now.

So yeah, what you say is true.

>>1567
Well there is one type of hunting for which the prey is guaranteed to be quite abundant. I'm not going to mention it, though.

For the record, I'm a vegetarian and will stay that way unless I run out of vegetables.
>> No. 1578 Anonymous
8th February 2011
Tuesday 12:41 am
1578 spacer
>>1526
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil
Also some interesting books that you might like to read:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Revenge-Gaia-Earth-Fighting-Humanity/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Partys-Over-Fate-Industrial-Societies/
Plus a funny DVD
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Robert-Newman-History-Oil-DVD/
with a link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5267640865741878159#

Other bookshops are available but amazon has a free look inside hence the links

>>1569
Ah long-pig, this I hadn't considered. Doesn't it make you go a little mad in the long term?
>> No. 1579 Anonymous
8th February 2011
Tuesday 1:44 am
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>>1578
I thought that was a myth, I've no firsthand expirience mind
>> No. 1580 Anonymous
8th February 2011
Tuesday 1:53 am
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>>1569
Posting for vegetarian solidarity purposes. Know what gets on my tits? Pescatarians that claim to be vegetarians or worse people who eat white meat and claim to be vegetarians.
>> No. 1581 Anonymous
8th February 2011
Tuesday 9:38 am
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One of the problems with long-pig, aside from the psychological effects, is that it is the worst for spreading disease. Unlike with other animals or plants the diseases are all specialised at attacking humans. There are diseases - including some that attack the brain - that can be passed on through this. You will be consuming a lifetime of accumulated disease.

A last resort that I wouldn't want to have to face. When it comes to that you're not just up shit creek, your boat is sinking. Eat a rat, grub or a squirrel first. The whole point of planning is to avoid this. This is what the unready mob and insane will be left with rather than you, with any luck.

Vegetarians better start stocking up on their vitamins and veggies now because the very last thing anyone will give a damn about in a SHTF situation is providing a balanced diet for religious types or those who choose to refuse to eat certain things for arbitrary reasons. Eat what you get if you're hungry. I'd suggest not waiting until everything else runs out if that means you are passing up meals in the meantime as those meals are bound to be consumed by others and not be waiting for you when you get back and change your mind.

Feel free to do what you like then and now, of course. It's your body and choice. Simply saying that you should reevaluate these things if things do change or take a turn for the worse. It's not worth dying for.

>>1580

If you consume any fungus then you are not a vegetarian in my elitest view either because fungi aren't vegetables or plants. BOOYAH

I'm an ultra breatharian. I'm holier than all of thee. It's not like any of this matters. It's a made up term and constraint. Call yourself whatever makes you happy.

I will never trust a hungry man who doesn't like bacon. That will be the test for who is allowed into my haven. Just like with the dogs sniffing out the terminators. If they flinch or turn their nose up at it, they will be murdered or chased away.
>> No. 1582 Anonymous
8th February 2011
Tuesday 9:55 am
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>>1569

It's disturbing to see how happy they are with that sign there.
>> No. 1583 Anonymous
8th February 2011
Tuesday 11:07 am
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>>1581
> One of the problems with long-pig, aside from the psychological effects, is that it is the worst for spreading disease. Unlike with other animals or plants the diseases are all specialised at attacking humans. There are diseases - including some that attack the brain - that can be passed on through this. You will be consuming a lifetime of accumulated disease.
True. You'd have to hunt younger specimens so as to minimise toxin intake.

Which would turn us into some kind of axe-murdering paedo cannibals - classic tabloid material - so we'd better wait until the apocalypse is in full swing before we go the long-pig route.

Not survival-oriented, but this blog may be of interest to /eco/ :

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/
>> No. 1584 Anonymous
8th February 2011
Tuesday 11:54 am
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>>1583

ARE CANNIBAL PAEDOS LOWERING PROPERTY VALUES IN YOUR AREA? (see more on page 7)

Machetes are much better for mass murder anyway. You can even use them to do the butchering. You wouldn't want to ruin the choicest cuts.
>> No. 1585 Anonymous
8th February 2011
Tuesday 3:29 pm
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I'm pretty excited for this, actually.
>> No. 1586 Anonymous
8th February 2011
Tuesday 3:33 pm
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>>1585

I laughed. Well done.

For that I wish you the best in the coming apocalypse. I would split a can of stored beans or stew with you as the ashes fall from the sky.
>> No. 1601 Anonymous
13th February 2011
Sunday 2:52 pm
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>>1556

I see you have chosen to ignore that cars at the moment on average do about 23 mpg, but production cars exist in normal use that get close to 80 mpg, and that is before the smoke has been blown up anyones arse to really make them more efficent. Honda has already built cars that work on hydrogen. So no, I don't think they wll be powered on rainbows.

>Someone should have told all those starving people in Africa that they will just have to become more food efficient
Contray to what you believe bono, famines in africa have little to do with lack of food, much more to do with piss poor education (a lot of tribes need westerners to expain to them to dig a hole to get clean water for christ sake), bruital corrupt politics, inter tribe racism and people having more children then they can support.

Although if a lot of contries in africa mastered the art of being more 'food efficent' in agriculture on the same level the rest of the world has, there would be little to no problem.

>>1568

>I really hope not. The return for nuclear power is instant - huge amounts of cheap, clean electricity. The cost, however, entails managing a huge pile of biologically incompatible garbage for a VERY long time. Overall, its a huge loser.

Not really, not on the same kind of scale of the eccological damage the same amount of energies worth of oil generates. It isn't a huge pile at all, nuclear waste is actually tiny compared to the amount of energy produced, I could run your entire life from birth to death on a piece of refined uranium the size of a 1p coin.

> hydrogen production
>from what primary energy source? Hydrogen is for storage and transport only: it is NOT a source.

Take your pick, what ever method you choose to get the electricity to power the refinery.
>> No. 1602 Anonymous
13th February 2011
Sunday 3:01 pm
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>>1601

No one "chose" to ignore this. You've either skipped through the posts before and fired off your opinion blind and without bothering your arse to read them or you're just stuffing words, intentions and opinions into someone else's mouth to suit yourself. A pathetic method of attacking someone and their opinions either way.

It was already explained why this was not going to save the day. So did you not read or understand ot did you choose to ignore the points that already addressed these comments? The answers and counters are already there.

People really shouldn't have to constantly repeat themselves in a thread for people like you who don't bother to read and absorb what was written already.

A nasty level of ignorance in your post.
>> No. 1603 Anonymous
13th February 2011
Sunday 7:53 pm
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Basically I think that if the world changes so that I am forced to farm for myself, to basically live to survive, to live in fear of hordes of lesser prepared, hungry, angry people, I'd much rather not bother. That's probably pretty bad, but fuck it. I'll stock up enough food for maybe half a year, and if there isn't some sort of government back by then I'll just top myself.
>> No. 1604 Anonymous
13th February 2011
Sunday 8:41 pm
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>>1603

Tribal Government. Mr. WrenchWrangler will barge into your house one day and 'offer' you protection... for a small tribute, of course. We all have to share and share alike in these times, after all.

You'll be eating dog food whilst the gangsters get first choice.
>> No. 1605 Anonymous
14th February 2011
Monday 11:08 am
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>>1601
> Not really, not on the same kind of scale of the eccological damage the same amount of energies worth of oil generates. It isn't a huge pile at all, nuclear waste is actually tiny compared to the amount of energy produced, I could run your entire life from birth to death on a piece of refined uranium the size of a 1p coin.
Got a reference? Sorry but that seems way below estimates.

Don't forget also, you're probably talking about pure U235. The stuff we run in our reactors is only 3% U235 - ie. 97% of it is U238 that absorbs lots of neutrons and becomes highly radioactive.

And that's just the volume of high level waste. What about the steel rods that contained the fuel pellets? They're intermediate level waste and also require a fuckload of shielding.

And then at the end of its lifespan, when the reactor has become too brittle from all the neutrons its absorbed to be safe, it has to be taken apart and stored as intermediate level waste.

And don't forget all the tons of low level waste - pretty much anything that's ever been near intermediate or high level waste. That also needs careful disposal.

Course you can try and reduce volumes of high and intermediate level waste by reprocessing. But that's a messy process and creates lots of low level waste. And leaks happen from time to time, so the plants usually end up pretty polluted. Reprocessing has also been responsible for a whole bunch of criticality accidents, which kill people and generate even more radioactive waste.

> >from what primary energy source? Hydrogen is for storage and transport only: it is NOT a source.
> Take your pick, what ever method you choose to get the electricity to power the refinery.
Hydrogen production requires more than 100% of the energy in the final product. Oil refining requires much less than 100% of the energy in the final product. Not sure what; I'd guess <20%.
>> No. 1606 Anonymous
14th February 2011
Monday 11:53 am
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>>1603

You shouldn't despair. Your ancestors in the past have lived through worse and they lived well enough to eventually lead to your creation. Perhaps you'll change your mind if it came to it, but keep your chin up. The last thing you want is that attitude even when the "mundane" terrible personal events happen. There's something to be said for the stiff upper lip.

I suspect you'll find your survival instinct is stronger than you believe. I'd be surprised to see someone just give up on living because they were lazy.
>> No. 1609 Anonymous
18th February 2011
Friday 12:19 am
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>>1605
>Hydrogen production requires more than 100% of the energy in the final product. Oil refining requires much less than 100% of the energy in the final product. Not sure what; I'd guess <20%.
Not >>1601 but this is the main problem, oil production is approaching 100% energy to produce the final product, hence peak oil...
But do feel free to carry on arguing about the pros and cons of nuclear energy until the lights go out and we all starve
>> No. 1610 Anonymous
18th February 2011
Friday 12:32 am
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We should have been building new nuclear, coal, gas, hydro and other alternatives years and years ago to modernise and supply us for the future. Instead we've got an aging system and plants that are running over their age limit (wasting fuel, giving less energy and with more risks).
>> No. 1611 Anonymous
18th February 2011
Friday 11:45 am
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>>1609
> oil production is approaching 100% energy to produce the final product, hence peak oil...
what? you best be trolling lad.
>> No. 1612 Anonymous
18th February 2011
Friday 11:59 am
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>>1611

Not the same person, but I don't see what is wrong with it, unless you've mistaken what he meant by it? I'm sure clarification can be forthcoming if you aren't sure and point out what the problem is.

It's referring to the cost of extraction and processing compared to the value of the end product. There's lots of resources that fall foul of this, regardless of their abundance or lack. I'm sure you can see now what was meant by the statement in question.
>> No. 1621 Anonymous
20th February 2011
Sunday 3:53 pm
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>>1612
peak oil is the peak of world oil production. it's when future production levels cannot sustainably (ie. without damaging fields) match current levels. it's got nothing to do with cost or energy of extraction.

> It's referring to the cost of extraction and processing compared to the value of the end product. There's lots of resources that fall foul of this, regardless of their abundance or lack.
Yeah but this financial cost, not energy cost. Financial cost will become relatively less as oil prices rise. Energy cost will remain a constant fraction for any given source and afaik it's not substantial for any currently feasible source.
>> No. 1622 Anonymous
21st February 2011
Monday 4:06 pm
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>>1621

>Yeah but this financial cost, not energy cost. Financial cost will become relatively less as oil prices rise. Energy cost will remain a constant fraction for any given source and afaik it's not substantial for any currently feasible source.

WRONG! Energy costs are increasing too. This is why large amounts of the "reserves" are not really reserves at all. They are shale (gives Canada a large "paper" reserve that isn't nearly so impressive when you break it down in detail) or at the edge (or beyond) the reach of worthwhile drilling and processing. You can't just magic the stuff out or use old methods to reach deep and difficult pockets or to process certain types of sources.

It costs energy to extract. It is NOT costant for all sources. Complete bollocks. Peak oil has everything to do with costs of extraction. This is a huge factor. Read up on the issue and you'll find tons on this problem. It's basic common sense when it comes to business, really.

If it costs 1/10 of a barrel of oil to get a barrel of oil then all is well. If it costs 9/10 or more then you're in deep shit. All is not equal.
>> No. 1629 Anonymous
24th February 2011
Thursday 5:44 pm
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>>1506

Where were most of you in 2004? Shit is old. You should know what to do by now. It sounds like I'm boasting and I'm honestly glad more people are 'aware' than they were, but shit, man.
>> No. 1632 Anonymous
24th February 2011
Thursday 6:36 pm
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>>1629

Post pictures of your bunker.
>> No. 1633 Anonymous
24th February 2011
Thursday 9:34 pm
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>>1622
Fair enough. I have no idea how much of a barrel it takes to extract a barrel.

Do you?
>> No. 1634 Anonymous
24th February 2011
Thursday 9:37 pm
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>>1633

I have actually looked into the costs of it and there's been more than enough public information on this from websites to documentaries.

Like has been said, it varies depending on what well you tap. In the old black gold rush days the effort was minimal compared to deep drilling in the gulf coast or hunting pockets in the north sea.
>> No. 1635 Anonymous
24th February 2011
Thursday 9:38 pm
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>>1634

I'm pretty sure now I think about it that you'd find something on YouTube or Google too. I can't be arsed to go look it up and copy and paste it or transcribe it from videos for the thread though. I was happy enough to learn for myself at the time. I wasn't planning on making pamphlets.
>> No. 1636 Anonymous
24th February 2011
Thursday 11:46 pm
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If you store fuel, especially heating oil, then buy it now. Not for some long term apocalypse, but because it should be clear by now that it won't be going down the unrest in the Middle East and threats to supply. If we get a patch of bad weather this will be used to crank the prices up. Get it while it is cheap and you'll save yourself a few quid down the road.
>> No. 1656 Anonymous
17th March 2011
Thursday 9:27 am
1656 The futures dark, but then I took my shades off
akira-kaneda-being-badass.jpg
165616561656
OP here,

It's ok ladmates, I've got an idea...

http://machinedesign.com/article/thorium-a-readily-available-and-slightly-radioactive-mineral-could-provide-the-world-with-sa

Pic unrelated
>> No. 1657 Anonymous
17th March 2011
Thursday 9:41 am
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>>1656

Two problems -

1. It's still pie in the sky
2. Doesn't replace oil's applications
>> No. 1658 Anonymous
17th March 2011
Thursday 12:47 pm
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Researchers at UCLA's Henry Samueli School of Engineering and Applied Science have developed a way to produce normal butanol — often proposed as a "greener" fuel alternative to diesel and gasoline -- from bacteria at rates significantly higher than those achieved using current production methods.

The findings, reported online in the journal Applied and Environmental Microbiology, mark an important advance in the production of normal butanol, or n-butanol, a four-carbon chain alcohol that has been shown to work well with existing energy infrastructure, including in vehicles designed for gasoline, without modifications that would be required with other biofuels.

The UCLA team, led by James C. Liao, UCLA's Chancellor's Professor of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering, demonstrated success in producing 15 to 30 grams of n-butanol per liter of culture medium using genetically engineered Escherichia coli — a record-setting increase over the typical one to four grams produced per liter in the past.


Genetically modified E. coli ? Blimey.
>> No. 1659 Anonymous
19th March 2011
Saturday 7:41 pm
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>>1658
You're not familiar with E. coli's overwhelming use in all forms of genetic research? It's fucking everywhere. We know more about the E. coli genome than we do our own.

I swear to god if I never see another E. coli culture again it will be too fucking soon.
>> No. 1660 Anonymous
19th March 2011
Saturday 11:55 pm
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>>1658
interesting, but how much do they have to feed the e. coli to get their 15 - 30 grams of butanol? is it efficient overall?
>> No. 1661 Anonymous
21st March 2011
Monday 9:49 am
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>>1660

Exactly. I've (and I'm sure others) have heard these stories come and go along with the regular water powered cars. Until we get more facts and news on viability then it's not worth getting excited over.
>> No. 1662 Anonymous
22nd March 2011
Tuesday 6:16 pm
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http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-06/environmental-visionaries-carbon-slayer

Here's one in a similar vein. This process sucks carbon from the air and makes fuel.
>> No. 1663 Anonymous
23rd March 2011
Wednesday 3:42 pm
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>>1662
what a crap idea. designer needs a slap around the chops.
>> No. 1664 Anonymous
23rd March 2011
Wednesday 4:22 pm
1664 spacer
>>1663

Agreed. The man is a crackpot sucking on the government grant teat.
>> No. 1665 Anonymous
27th March 2011
Sunday 12:50 am
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>>1663
Really? If he has an efficient process, does this not represent a way of totally cutting out fossil fuel reliance, but with the one huge advantage that the oil can be used now, without having to totally rework the car, the ship and the plane?
>> No. 1666 Anonymous
28th March 2011
Monday 7:06 pm
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>>1665 I agree. It's probably the best idea man ever had. However, it just seems too good to be possible. Having said that, it's time we had a break.
>> No. 1667 Anonymous
28th March 2011
Monday 8:32 pm
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>>1663
>>1664

Someone's jealoussss
>> No. 1668 Anonymous
29th March 2011
Tuesday 4:59 pm
1668 spacer
>>1666

>best idea man ever had

Oh come on. Ludicrous pie in the sky and you're giving it this hyperbole?

The idea is absurd, unproven and unworkable.
>> No. 1669 Anonymous
29th March 2011
Tuesday 6:35 pm
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>>1668

>Ludicrous pie in the sky

On what basis are you saying this?
>> No. 1687 Anonymous
21st April 2011
Thursday 2:14 am
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Ok I've been convinced that I need to grow some stuff to live on. I have very little soil and not much sun. What's my best options?

I have raspberry canes, garlic and a few herbs (mint, chives, tyme) what else does eco think I should grow?

Pic very much related http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1503769/
>> No. 1688 Anonymous
21st April 2011
Thursday 9:06 am
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>>1687
If you have a wall you could do >>1679 does not use up much space, or sun.

I remember reading about growing potatoes, in towers of tires, I presume that would work for other plants aswell.
>> No. 1689 Anonymous
21st April 2011
Thursday 2:17 pm
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>>1603

I'm with you, being alive is all well and good during the high times but I don't think I care enough about it to live a lifetime of hardship, better to enjoy what we have left then cast ourselves into oblivion!
>> No. 1690 Anonymous
21st April 2011
Thursday 3:03 pm
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I find it hard to imagine how pathetic, weak of character, lazy and shallow someone would have to be to wish to be dead instead of having any hardship. What a terrible human being.

Better such people die off anway, frankly. Best for the species as a whole. We'd have never survived a generation if such poor specimens were allowed to thrive and become the majority. Be sure to post up your address here so the rest can raid your home for supplies before others do. Bagsy the tinned meat.

>>1687

Planters, also consider growing fungi. You can do that underground or inside without needing to go into hydroponics or similar fields.
>> No. 1691 Anonymous
21st April 2011
Thursday 11:46 pm
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>>1687
I think that people sometimes grow potatoes in pots, piling up soil as the plant grows. I would also suggest that if you could put up a window-box, you might be able to harvest carrots, chives or even lettuce, depending on how much room you have.
If you like your herbs, keep a pot of basil indoors; it's virtually indestructible.
>> No. 1692 Anonymous
23rd April 2011
Saturday 4:08 pm
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Indoor planters + LED grow lights.
>> No. 1703 Anonymous
28th April 2011
Thursday 10:22 am
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>>1692

Beware of LED grow lights. Great claims are made but results are there none.
>> No. 1704 Anonymous
28th April 2011
Thursday 10:43 am
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>>1703

I've not seen any complaints about them other than from people trying to buy overpriced ready made panels, maybe I've just missed it. Where are you getting these warnings? It's well worth posting it up for us all to read.

If price is the problem then make up your own panels for a fraction of the cost and for a perfectly tailored product. Use them at the very least as a supplement, you can be flexible.

http://forums.bghydro.com/showthread.php?201-LED-Grow-Light-Opinions
>> No. 1716 Anonymous
3rd May 2011
Tuesday 9:34 am
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>>1704

From the thread you put up -

>Hi all,

>Time to lay to rest another myth.

>You can only create light that plants can use, PAR light, AKA the visible spectrum, when the light has plasma. The Sun makes plasma, HID lights make plasma, and that's about it. Other lights like LED's and fluorescents make light differently, and they basically are just glowing and burning phosphors, in essence.

>No plasma means no effective light that can have any power, amplitude or proper spectrum that plants need to make photosynthesis. If the light can't penetrate, its ineffective for overall plant growth. LED's deliver light to a linear plane, and can't penetrate.

>You can all research this from this basic bit of science and photobiology.

>Cheers

I was going to say the same myself. Look at the available light spectrum of your LED panel. It's just not there by comparison to HPS or envirolite. If it is cheap you are after, envirolite is the way.
>> No. 1717 Anonymous
3rd May 2011
Tuesday 8:47 pm
1717 spacer
>>1716

I suspected you'd not read past that. Read the rest of the thread.
>> No. 1718 Anonymous
4th May 2011
Wednesday 10:04 am
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>>1717

I did read the rest of your thread. I only want to advise you that LED panels can be a mug's game. The cheaper ones do not work at all, there are mixed views on the grand-a-panel jobbies. It's your money I suppose, but it seems shady to me.
>> No. 1719 Anonymous
4th May 2011
Wednesday 10:05 am
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>>1717

Oh, and here's the final post in your thread.

>update on this, the haight solid state ppf-400 is okay, but just not enough. i wound up combining 4 sunshine systems glowpanel 45 panels together with the haight solid state ppf-400, all 5 of these panels together are kicking butt. that is a lot of panel for not a whole lot of coverage though, let's see, $110 average for each glowpanel, $165 for the used haight solid state, 202 watts of led that cost a total of $605 and it's doing about as good as my old 250 watt hps, i am saving a little bit on electricity but honestly, when i add up all that was spent on these leds the savings don't make much sense, even with bulb replacements every 6 months it sure takes a long time for the electricity savings to add up enough to off set it
>> No. 1720 Anonymous
4th May 2011
Wednesday 10:24 am
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>>1718
>>1719

And the people who disagreed with that earlier quote and others who said they were growing with them?

I guess people are only right and worth quoting when they agree with you.
>> No. 1721 Anonymous
4th May 2011
Wednesday 4:42 pm
1721 spacer
I realised I am coming far too hostile about this for my tastes and you're only advising caution for the other lad's benefit anyway. I really don't want to go down that path, especially on /eco/. They can read up on these things more if it really interests them, etc. Especially now they've been given some key terms and ideas.

Sorry about that, fellow /eco/warriors.
>> No. 1722 Anonymous
5th May 2011
Thursday 11:14 pm
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>>1721
Don't worry, people here generally assume that a post is in good faith.

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